Interview with Dr John Bowlby, 1980.
By Valerie Sinason
From the “Tavistock
Gazette”, founded and edited by Valerie Sinason
It seems
particularly fitting that the final volume of John Bowlby’s magnificent trilogy
on ‘Attachment and Loss’ should be published this year, in the Diamond Jubilee
year of the Tavistock Clinic. For the transformation in thinking and
policy-making that his work has inspired and encouraged both in this country
and around the world, have enriched the Tavistock Clinic for nearly 35 years;
and some of the high regard with which the name of the Tavistock Clinic is held
in many countries is surely due to Bowlby’s ideas and writings as
ambassadors. In his long and fruitful
time here he has been not only a Deputy Director of the Clinic and Head of
Children and Parents Department (until
1968) but also involved with the Tavistock Institute of Human Relations. Before
the war he was on the staff of the
Child Guidance Training Centre.
Bowlby has not only
bridged many of the groups that make up the Tavistock Centre, he has also made
a bridge between psychoanalysis, biology and psychology. In ‘Psycho-analysis as
an art and science’ (Int. Rev Psycho-Anal 1979 6.3) we see the significance of
the bridge he has crossed when he describes the hostile psychoanalytic reaction
of some of the British Society members (in 1937 when Bowlby qualified in
psycho-analysis) to his interest in the outer as well as the inner
environment: ‘ … it was assumed that
anyone interested in the external world could not be interested in the internal
world, indeed was almost certainly running away from it. To me as a biologist
this contrast of internal with external, of organism with environment, never
appealed’. It was a desire to bridge this gap that led Bowlby to select the
topic of his major life’s work - the effects of separation in childhood.
Separation was an unmistakable outer fact of reality; it was, he felt sure, a
damaging experience and he felt preventative measures were possible.
The effects of separation
are so much a part of our cultural knowledge now, thanks to Bowlby and the
Robertsons, that it is a true mark of historical change that the analytic
establishment at the time should have become so hostile. ‘Incredulousness
was widespread among intellectuals and psychoanalytic colleagues. Every
ordinary mother knew about the effects of these things and was not surprised at
my findings but they were findings at variance with the analytic theory of the
time and much disputed’. Why does he feel that it has been so hard to
accept attachment behaviour - something we share with the animal world?
‘You might say it goes back to Darwin’s day. There have always been people who believe that humans are not part of the animal kingdom. Obviously humans are a rather special sort of species but the notion that we share a biological heritage is very unpopular in some quarters and there has been much resistance to the idea that our behavioural equipment has much in common with other species. I recall discussion’with people who were honestly sure that human beings had almost complete freedom of action and that nothing in their behaviour was preordained genetically. On the one hand Freud talked a great deal about instinct but on the other analysts have been very reluctant to see human instincts in the same bracket as animal instincts’.
How does Dr. Bowlby
feel about the time it has taken for his ideas to spread and be put into
practice? ‘Well, I feel rather pleased about that. With regard to the care
of children in homes, hospitals and foster care my theories have been utilised
in a very practical way - thanks to the enormous impact of Jimmy Robertson’s
films and lectures. I think it is easier for practical implications to be acted
on than for theoretical implications to be accepted. Amongst developmental
psychologists my theories are now taken for granted - due in great part to the
tremendous contribution of my old Tavistock colleague, Mary Ainsworth. But this
is a natural outcome. Developmental psychologists work in academic settings
where it is their job to keep up with the literature whereas clinical people
are busy with their clinical work and many of them don’t find time to read -
and after all there are a lot of newfangled ideas about, so unless people are
convinced something is worthwhile they can’t be bothered with it. And then
again, the average practitioner learns his theory as a student and his main
preoccupation after that is clinical. To have a fresh look at theory is a major
undertaking and I don’t blame people for not wanting to embark on that (and he
gives a lovely laugh). As far as other groups are concerned, the ordinary
person does what he thinks best and goes along as well as he can without taking
too much notice of the experts. The difficulty is for the intellectual who
reads everything and is anxious to do the right thing. Given all these factors
I am both surprised and pleased at the influence my ideas have had, both in the
practical and theoretical fields. What I would now most like is for the
theoretical structure I have proposed to be more tested, amplified, developed
and utilised’.
It was in 1951 that
Bowlby’s famous monograph ‘Maternal Care and Mental Health’ was published by
the World Health Organisation. Have his views changed much since then - with
his trilogy now completed 29 years later? ‘Well, after that monograph I
wrote a paper in 1957, ‘The Nature of the Child’s Tie to his Mother’
(Int.J.Psycho-Anal.41;89-l 13). This was really the forerunner of ‘Attachment
and Loss’. During the years 1957-1963 I did a complete first look at the area.
So when I began to write my trilogy I had quite a lot of knowledge of the
ground. Also, I did not sit down to write a trilogy. It became first twins,
then triplets. Since the first volume of ‘Attachment and Loss’ was first
published (London: Hogarth 1969) I have not had to make many changes. I have
always been very careful at what I put in print - very cautious. Anything
published goes through many drafts’.
Bowlby is in that
very rare small group of men and women whose writing is as communicative and
interesting as their work. Does he enjoy the act of writing? ‘Yes: I do. I
enjoy it and I take a lot of trouble to make it readable. Easy reading means
hard writing. The first thing I do in the morning - which is my fixed writing
time - is to read over and revise what I wrote the previous day. Sometimes my
whole writing session may be spent rewriting what I have written and it gets me
into the right mood to continue. I am rather proud of being readable. All my
other activities are for afternoons and evenings.’
Being so readable
meant that the Penguin ‘Child Care and the Growth of Love’ sold over half a
million copies, but also meant that it was misquoted for a variety of reasons.
Feminist groups got very angry at what they saw as Dr. Bowlby demanding 24 hour
continuous attendance on their babies. ‘The word continuous was very much
misunderstood. I was talking about continuity as a contrast to what children
experience when they are removed from their families, who need continuity over
days, weeks and months, not hours and minutes. Had they taken the trouble to
read properly they would have understood. No. Every child needs a principal
figure and the principal figure is usually mother or adoptive mother. In
addition I think is it very important that a child should feel secure also with
a few other people - not just with a single figure. Reserve figures - father,
granny, are very important, perhaps a neighbour. A mother needs plenty of hour
to hour respite. In a stable society families will have help from relatives or
friends but in a shifting industrialised society with an emphasis on material
wealth it is much harder for the nuclear family. The nuclear family on its own
is vulnerable as, if anything goes wrong, there is no support system. Where it
is possible it is good if families live reasonably near each other - as was
common in the East End. I am a firm believer in the three generation family .
the presence of granny is like an insurance policy. Also there is a strong
biological point here because granny has a stake in her grandchildren that
neighbours don’t’.
What are Dr.
Bowlby’s feelings about child-rearing now? Has the quality improved? ‘I
should doubt that. The way the majority of parents bring up their children is
influenced to a high degree by the way that they were brought up themselves by
their own parents and relatives. Intellectual views about these matters take a
long time to percolate which is just as well because after all a lot of very bad
ideas have been promulgated’ (and he gives an infectious laugh).
What about working
mothers? ‘Well, if the maternal grandmother lives near there is a built-in
substitute mother giving mother some freedom. Most women doing ordinary jobs
are quite happy to leave work for a time while their children are young and to
return to work later. The real problem with work does not come up with them. It
is the gifted professional women who are in a difficult situation -and the more
gifted they are the harder the situation. My own feeling is that it is
desirable for a professional woman to give up full-time work but keep in touch
by doing a couple of half days a week or do work, like reviewing, at home. And
then to return in easy stages back to longer working hours. This is often hard
to implement because women who return to work are pressured by colleagues to do
more than they should. The result, often, is that women end up doing two jobs
whilst men are unemployed. Of course where pressure to work arises from economic
reasons, in single parent families for example, quite different issues are
raised. To deal with every aspect of your question would take a very long
time’.
There is no way that
Dr. Bowlby is ever in danger of being under-employed. With his monumental trilogy
completed has he taken a deserved break? ‘Well, actually, I am carrying on
work in a similar vein. I have written three papers since I finished the third
volume. I get invited to give addresses here and there. In Chicago, for
example, I gave a paper on caring for children. It was really on parenting,
being a parent. I was looking at parental behaviour as a complement to
attachment behaviour and indicating how we need to do a systematic study of the
development of parental behaviour and the various conditions that help or
hinder it’.
What was the recent
tour he had just returned from? ‘Well, that was a big undertaking, bigger
than I had bargained for because I started with two invitations - one from a
former senior registrar called Max Hernandez from Peru who was here 1969-73. He
trained over here as a child psychiatrist and psychoanalyst and felt he would
be very lonely when he returned to Peru and was eager for my wife and me to
visit there. Another invitation was to do a week’s teaching at the University
of Southern California in Los Angeles. As they were prepared to pay fares and
everything we thought we would combine the two. In the end my wife was not able
to come with me but I went to Lima as planned and spent a week with Max and his
lively attractive group of colleagues; and then I went on to Bogota, Columbia,
where I spent the best part of a week, and then I spent six weeks going round
the United States’.
Given Dr. Bowlby’s
views on the value of grandparents and long-term careful planning of work and
care it was particularly satisfying to learn that his secretary Dorothy
Southern has worked with him for 30 years and that he is a grandfather with
five grandsons and two granddaughters ‘of whom I see a great deal’. And
there is a pleasurable sense of certainty that we will see and read a great
deal more from this major Tavistock Clinic source of inspiration.
Dorothy Southern has been
working with/for Dr. John Bowlby since the 12th February 1951 (after working
for Jimmy Robertson for 2 years). With such a long working relationship it
comes as no surprise to hear that she has ‘immensely enjoyed my working
life’. She can vividly remember the move to the current premises. As it was
the middle of the academic year and patients had to find their way to a new
building, new area and rooms. ‘Dr. Bowlby suggested we buy some red tape and
make it go up the banisters all the way to the Children and Parents Department
Waiting Room so the patients would have no difficulty finding their way’. She produces from her drawer a historical
piece of the red tape!
What are her feelings about
Dr. Bowlby? ‘He is a great communicator and administrator and diplomat and
could always patiently wait for people to think and act. He has always been a
very thoughtful man to work for, saying what he needs and when for and always
very courteous and giving plenty of notice when he had something extra he
needed done. Another tremendous thing about him, and something I have learned a
lot from, is his use of language. He has also been a great influence on my
thinking. When his work first began there was an enormous amount of hostility
to be born. I remember after Jimmy Robertson’s film ‘A 2 year old goes to
hospital’ there were terrible denials from the nursing staff. But I
always believed in the work. I was fortunate to have a good mother and all the
things my mother said or did were confirmed for me.’
When Dr. Bowlby left the Department for Children and Parents there were technical problems for Dorothy Southern. ‘My whole pension would have been affected, moving from the NHS to TIHR but I wanted to make the move with Dr. Bowlby after working with him all those years. So we explored what to do with Sydney Grey and it has now been sorted out with Dr. Bowlby paying for a quarter of my time!’ One change that Dorothy Southern does not feel is for the best is the increase in part-time staff. She remembers when the Department felt like a small family with an intense commitment to the Clinic. Now there are so many part-time workers she feels something of that identity is lost.